BBS

★ あ、言い方が変だった / Hoffnung

きちんとした幹があり枝葉も丁寧に整えられたストーリー、登場人物の命運について誰もが納得できる決着をつけたエンディングを用意するのは、庵野氏にとっては「リリーフエースに先発がつとまらない」ようなもので、不得意分野であるということで。そして大抵のファンはそれをもう承知済みだから、期待してもしょうがない。「終わり」の感覚を表現技法のたたみかけによって演出した、という部分については納得するし賞賛する、というのはそこいらへんからの感想であります。

でも、レイの扱いはもちっと何とかならなかったか、という思いは残るんだよね（とほほ

No.86 2021/04/22(Thu) 12:49:42

★ といっても / Hoffnung

大したことでもなく。それ以前に、下の自分の英語、あちこち間違いがある（汗　まあ、直すのもかえってみっともないので、そのままで。

エヴァに限らず、日本アニメによくあるテーマの一つが「わかる」「わかりあえる」努力とその難しさ。「僕たちはわかりあえるはずだ」といった台詞は何カ所かで既出。エヴァもまた、それを補間計画というかなり独自の方法で表現している。「あなたはわかろうとしたの？」なんて台詞もあったな。

シン・エヴァはあの流れに沿って、「ぼくがかんがえたさいこうのえう゛ぁ」を基準にするでなく、目の前に見せられる映像に素直に乗りつつ見たつもりなのだが、その上でなお、これはミスじゃないかと思ったことが一つある。それはゲンドウとシンジが「わかり合って」しまうところ。これ、ストーリーのキモなので、それじゃやっぱ失敗作じゃんと言えなくもないのだが、そこまででなくても、あれはちょっと、と思う次第。

どういうことかというと、「わかり合える」というのはＥＯＥでレイとカヲルが言ったように、「かもしれないという希望」であって、マイナス宇宙で親子喧嘩してしれっとお互い納得するのってどうよ？という違和感。人間どうし、まともにわかり合えるなんてそうそうない。長年一緒にいる者どうしでもうまくいかない。他者との接触も、袖すり合うも何とやらの合間に小さな共感が生まれるだけでもうけもの、と思うわけであります。

私は両親ともにもうこの世にいないけれど、生前にじっくりと腹を割って語り合うなんてことは一度もなかったし、心の底からわかり合うなんて望んでもいなかったと思う。で、それを取り返しのつかない悲劇だとも思わない。完全には、あるいは肝心なことはわからないまま、人は年をとり、代替わりし、消えていく。それでいいじゃん、そんなもんだろ、と。

だから、シン・エヴァでも心の底からわかり合うことをゴール設定するのでなく、限定的な理解をゴールとして、お互いにそのゴールでよしとする、という共通理解を、たとえ親子であってももつ方がむしろ自然なないのか？

シンジは「わかりたい病」、ゲンドウは「わかってほしい病」？せっかくユイという、マリと並ぶジョーカーが登場するのだから、シンジとゲンドウが限定的な理解を果たした上で、それでいいんだと納得し、そこから後に大団円をもたらす役割をユイがもっと積極的に果たしていればよかったかな、と今になって思う。

あるべき世界はbeautiful worldであって、perfect worldではない。力不足で、中途半端で、完全にわかり合えるわけでなくて、それでも日々を紡いでいく、第三村のようなところなのかも。あれはbeautifulだがperfectではないわけで。

しかしこれ、メタなレベルにずらして見ると、伏線回収ガーという勢力は「わかりたい病」をこじらせたのかな、なんて思ったり。しかし作者と観客は「わかり合える」も妄想、なんていうと創作活動そのものの意味があやしくなってしまうな。

無理矢理話をたたむと、庵野氏は有能だと思うが、それは表現技法に特化した、ピーキーな才能であり、エヴァに落とし前をつけるにしても、鯖氏の言われるように「文脈化」した健やかなストーリーとしての方法でなく、表現技法の一大博覧会によるケリの付け方だったんじゃなかろうかと思う次第。

まあ、私の性格上、勇ましい全否定も、軟弱な全肯定もするつもりはないので、こんなところで。

No.84 2021/04/21(Wed) 21:12:24

★ 喩え話も / Hoffnung

ストックが切れてきたｗ

柊どの

>なんで、まぁ、あそこまで不器用なのでしょう。

アスカは自分の感情の取扱い以外についてはきわめて有能なんですが、あのへんの不器用さはレイと双璧ですわね。とりわけ、やたらに器用なマリと比べたりすると。流石ＢＢＡ（げふんげふん

>ですので、私は貞本版14巻 STAGE.94の表紙絵を見て

ここのもう一人の管理人は、貞本氏についても庵野氏同様のメッタ斬りですから、面白いレスが見れるかもｗ　貞本版のエンディングについては、一部で言われているほど「きれいに終わった」とは思わないけど、アニメのコミカライズという性質上、作者のオリジナリティを入れる余地がほとんどなかったという大人の事情も考えると、ＥＯＥの組み立てを変えずにマイルドに締めくくるやり方としては「及第点」かなと思っています。「自分でもどうしていいか分からない、淡い思いを胸にかかえたレイ」のイメージは貞本版が一番よく出ていると思います。疑問符をつけるとすれば、「雪がすべてを覆い隠す」という素人小説でよくやる演出をやってしまった点でしょうか。真夏の世界でも、全てが過ぎ去った寂寥感を出すことはできるはずなので。

あと、英語でのレス、有り難うございます。この後、私も及ばずながらRei Fanさんに一言レスします。

Hi Rei Fan,

Thank you again for visiting us. It's so nice to have diverse outlooks on Shin-Eva; I feel that there are as many "versions" of Eva's ending as there are fans.

I suppose quest for the form/style/perspective of happiness is one very general theme of Eva. You know, in The End of Evangelion (if I remember correctly), Yui says that one can find happiness as long as s/he manages to survive. In Shin-Eva, at last, Asuka seems to have found out a right shell (or frame of mind) in which she feels secure, which is perhaps far more important than mere sense of romance. To that extent, Asuka was received a fair treatment finally.

>Where has this Rei gone?

I agree, totally. It's a far cry, or a galactic lament all Rei-freaks share. Usually I simply try to enjoy what is presented before my eyes, without bothering to make any guess about the creator's mindset. But in this situation, I may be allowed to make a guess. Probably Anno was bored. Bored of Eva vogue, and of himself. Seeing Rei at the center of the Eva myth, he may have wanted to decentralize or demystify Rei. She wasn't given any significant role in Shin-Eva beyond (re)building a faint rapport with Shinji. I now think of the etymological interpretation of the word "disillusion". Black Rei was an illusion. Anno may have urged us (brutally, I think) to efface from our mind the overcharged image of Rei. Naturally it caused a lot of disturbance in us.

>Personally, I would have preferred that Rei returned to full strength, and was more than just a "cute victim".

Too true. That is the sentiment that Ayanamiten folks share.

In Shin-Godzilla, the scientist who committed suicide after letting loose Godzilla says "I did what I liked; you guys do what you like". Anno did what he liked. Now what do we do? I may continue writing (or at least constructing in my head) my private Eva story, but beyond that, there is no idea.

And back to Hiiragi-san (btw, 柊=holly)

>Ayanami Rei is a very multi-layered character,

Exactly. That makes Rei an eternal enigma. In contrast, Asuka is pretty easy to understand. Mari is beyond understanding (she is a joker, and so has no "content"). Perhaps we project our own hidden piece of mind to Rei.

で、おしまいに。ヴァイオレット・エヴァーガーデンについてのコメント、言われてみてなるほどと思いました。あの、見ている方が切なくなる感じ、ある時代の少女マンガの系譜ですよね。

あと一個、この後ネタ投下します。

No.83 2021/04/21(Wed) 20:29:04

★ レーションって何味？ / 柊

先日、漸く２回目を見てきました。

改めて色々と感じる事があったのですが、その一つにアスカがシンジに無理やりレーションを無理やり食べさせるシーンでのアスカの言葉達に不覚にも少しジーンとしてしまいした。
なんで、まぁ、あそこまで不器用なのでしょう。
決して悪い子じゃないのに。

宮村さん曰く

「アスカが何言っても、結局シンジには届かない。結局。シンジにはレイちゃんとかじゃないと届かないんですよね」

嬉しいけど、どことなくやるせない思いが残りました。

にしても、白くなって消えるシーン
やっぱり、あまりにも辛かった。

個人的にはやっぱり彼女を素直に「綾波レイ」だとは思いたくない部分もあるのですが、それでもやはり辛過ぎます。

Hoffnung さん

＞うららな春の海辺
＞波打ちぎわで無邪気に微笑み合うレイとシンジを見たかった．．．

ほんとうに、その通りだと思います。

ですので、私は貞本版14巻 STAGE.94の表紙絵を見て、その代わりとしました。
そこでの手の繋ぎ方。
レイだけに許された特権だと思う・・・あれ？ミサトさんともどこかであったような。

ま、いっか。

お騒がせしました。

No.82 2021/04/14(Wed) 01:14:31

★ (No Subject) / 柊

Dear Rei-Fan

I'm sorry for the late reply
Also, there are some things I would like you to understand before replying.

Please understand that the following statements are my personal intentions, and of course I do not force you to agree with them.

And in my opinion, Ayanami Rei is a very multi-layered character, and her charm can be completely different for each audience.

Therefore, my perception of Ayanami Rei's charm is probably very different from your perception of her. And I think it's good for each audience member to cherish the "Rei Ayanami" they believe in.
I hope you can understand this point.

Now, your reply was very interesting to me.
It was especially interesting because I hadn't thought about Ayanami Rei's outstanding abilities and strength as an EVA pilot.
Indeed, if you look at episodes 11 and 12 of the TV version, for example, Rei always seems to be calm and has excellent judgment. She's an excellent commander, isn't she?

Also, as you pointed out, Rei Ayanami is a character with a history of being used excessively conveniently by the producers, as well as being ignored for some unknown reasons. *1

Rei Ayanami, who was reprised on television in 1997 and once graced the cover of Time magazine, has been the target of much ill will as her popularity has grown.

For example, anti-Ayanami Rei was posted on many other message boards as well as on 2chan, the predecessor of today's 5chan.
Much debate and confrontation has ensued since then.
It is true that malicious prejudice, mainly from part of Asuka fans, was directed at Ayanami Rei and her fans.

In particular, the fact that Rei is a clone of Shinji's mother became an object of unbearable ridicule at times, even though it was clear that this did nothing to harm the value of Ayanami Rei.
I also know that there are still many people who mock Ayanami Rei on 5chan these days.

But now I've decided not to pay them any mind.
Ayanami Rei has been a dignified woman for 25 years and still is.
As a fan of "Rei Ayanami" who is not only a dignifed but also intelligent girl,
it's useless to worry about those foolish people who don't recognize her charm and say things that put her down.

At the same time, as a fan of Ayanami Rei, I would like to properly acknowledge Asuka's courage and the efforts she has made so far.
I'm sure that the majority of Asuka's gentle and fair-minded fans will be happy to hear that.

This is my personal attitude toward Asuka and her fans.

Finally, there is one thing I would like to ask
Assuming I understand your writing correctly, you said that the real reason for bringing Shikinami closer to Rei in this new series is due to Asuka's lack of ability.
Do you have any clear evidence for this? If so, please let me know.

As far as I know, this is something that only Director ANNO and his staff know.
(There has been a lot of discussion and speculation about the reason for this, but so far there should be no official explanation).

* 1
At the same time, I think we need to recognize the fact that Asuka is an unnecessarily abused character in the story.

色々自信ないな。やっぱやめときゃよかった。（苦笑）

No.81 2021/04/14(Wed) 01:10:40

★ (No Subject) / Rei Fan

deepl.comを使って良い翻訳ができます。

Dear Heragi(柊）,

I also believe naturally, under ideal conditions, that Asuka, Shinji, Rei, yes, even Gendo deserve happiness.
However, that is simply an ideal, and given the current conditions, the treatment of Asuka was very deserved.

Why?

Ever since 1997, Rei has not seen the same peak. The Rei Ayanami who was intelligent, strong beyond measure. A cool EVA, cool things like the Lance of Longinus, a heroine who would save the day with her own strength and develop positively.
She was Lilith, saved Asuka and Shinji, and herself. She had impressive abilities, AT-fields, flying, everything.

Where has this Rei gone? That was 24 years ago. Video games, manga, merchandise, pachinko, even crossover products like "Super Robot Wars", there was nothing of that Rei at all. But Asuka, even Kaworu increasingly usurped Rei's traits and got stronger roles. Little by little, Rei was eroded. "Lilith" disappeared.

Asuka fans, Kaworu fans cheered, and Rei got more and more forgotten. Asuka fans everywhere exploded with hatred for Rei, and ridiculed Rei simply for being born as a clone. An unnatural, inhuman existence. Don't believe me? Look at your own 5ch Evangelion BBS.

Even Hideaki Anno and Tsurumaki Kazuya, belittled Rei and her fans. Even though Rei was originally this supreme character.

So when in Shin Eva, Asuka "Soryu" isn't good enough to pilot EVA - and must be "improved" to become more like Rei, a clone - this is the perfect "poetic justice".
Asuka as a character may not have deserved it, but Asuka fans did.

Even though it is indirect, this is Hideaki Anno finally admitting that Rei is the best after all, and his "old favorite" needed to be remodeled to be more like Rei.
In summary, this is deserved for Asuka fans.

Because they were the ones who abandoned the original "Soryu" Asuka. The Asuka fans created "Shikinami" themselves. So it is deserved.

Personally, I would have preferred that Rei returned to full strength, and was more than just a "cute victim". I would have preferred the neurotic, doll-like Soryu too. But, this conclusion is also good, and the punishment is good too.

I want to see more of the "True" Rei Ayanami.

No.80 2021/04/09(Fri) 03:19:39